Re: I Know The Missile Huggers Will Hate To Hear It But This Will Hopefully Be My Last Posting Here

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Posted by acehai on September 24, 19100 at 19:47:57:

In Reply to: Re: I Know The Missile Huggers Will Hate To Hear It But This Will Hopefully Be My Last Posting Here posted by Rick Savage on September 24, 19100 at 06:42:47:

: : Elmer,

: I also hope that you don't go away.

: Though, be warned that I come with a substantial bias - I love a good conspiracy and I hate the Clinton Administration. I can't help it -- that's how I am.

: I'll try not to be belligerent, but it isn't easy.

: Your points that (1) eyewitnesses can make glaring errors, and that (2) the people most familiar with the setting might be most prone to pre-consciously add their own expectations, are well-taken. But obviously, that isn't to say that eyewitnesses should be discounted -- especially when there are hundreds of them, they provide a 360-degree perspective around the mishap, and many of them are highly credible. Mostly, your disclaimers seem to point out that ALL evidence should be taken with a substantial "grain of salt" - EVEN eyewitness accounts.

: Following are some of the claims I've encountered that support the missile hypothesis. Obviously, I'm hoping that you won't be able to dismantle them one-by-one, but I would also like to know the truth -- so give it your best shot while I hold my breath.

: One final complaint before getting started. I am well educated, a Psychometrician, helicopter pilot, combat veteran and 58 years old - and, as far as I can tell, I find the evidence for a missile shoot down quite credible. I know a lot of other well-educated, seemingly intelligent people who have come to similar conclusions. One trait that distinguishes us from most well educated NON-believers is that we are much better read on the subject… (I understand that pre-existing biases may have much to do with the extra reading, but that doesn't discount the extra information we've gained by the extra reading.)

: Also, the Internet and "alternative" media are positively abuzz with allegations supporting the missile thesis.

: But, I also perceive the government and establishment media as dismissing the missile thesis out of hand without carefully addressing the different allegations. Do you agree with that accounting? Does it sound familiar? If so, how can we take the establishment media seriously when it doesn't take us seriously? We might be wrong, but we're not stupid - and we're no more biased than the people on the other side.

: I'll do my best to keep an open mind. For now, please just tell me your opinion of the credibility of each of these 36 allegations - we can get to your explanations later. Probably the easiest way to do this is to use a five point scale: strongly agree; agree; no opinion; disagree; strongly disagree. Unfortunately, some of the "specific" allegations are actually multiple and you may need to distinguish between pieces.

:
: 1) On the evening of July 17, 1996, 30 minutes after the crash of TWA Flight 800 twelve miles south of Long Island, the FAA called the situation room at the White House to report that the 747 had apparently been shot down by a surface to air missile.
: 2) An object traveling in excess of 2000 mph (or an anomaly) had been picked up on 3 passes of the FAA Islip (NY) radar and overtaking Flight 800 just as the 747's transponder died.
: 3) When word got out that such an "object" had been tracked by radar, the FBI and NTSB spread their word that the radar tape was not authentic. Later, they were forced to retract their claim when Boston radar, Navy Riverhead radar and satellite data were found to contain similar "blips."
: 4) At the same time, 183 eyewitnesses claimed to have seen at least one flare or missile like object converge upon TWA800 right before the explosion. 96 of these claimed to have seen it rise from the surface.
: 5) The NTSB set up a Witness Group that was immediately disbanded when the FBI "illegally" took over. The NTSB never did interview any witnesses.
: 6) The CIA, out of its jurisdiction and expertise (but masters of disinformation), without interviewing any of the witnesses that claimed to see the object rise from the surface, claimed that what the witnesses had actually seen was smoldering debris falling from the aircraft AFTER the explosion. They produced a cartoon depicting such an event and released it to national TV.
: 7) Those who claimed to have seen the object rise from the surface claimed that the cartoon bore no resemblance to what they had observed. In reading their testimonies, I came to the same conclusion.
: 8) Two of these eyewitnesses were helicopter pilots of the NY Air National Guard who were so close to the explosion as to need to avoid debris and be able to see falling bodies. They saw TWO missiles coming - from opposite directions.
: 9) Another group of witnesses to an apparent missile was the crew of a NY Air National Guard C-130 also on the scene who were describing their experience to the press when a high ranking military officer pulled them away. When they returned, their story had changed.
: 10) One witness to what he believed to be a missile converging on FL800 was actually a missile expert on board another commercial aircraft less than 2 miles away at the time of the first explosion.
: 11) Several witnesses on the ground claimed to have heard a loud, "rolling" noise (entirely consistent with the launching of a missile) approximately 20 seconds before the first explosion of TWA 800.
: 12) The last noise on the cockpit voice recorder was a vibration traveling through the airframe at 2000 ft per second - consistent with a missile impact and inconsistent with a bomb or fuel tank explosion (the government's explanation)
: 13) Because of his indictment involving this case, the FBI was forced to allow James Sanders (an investigative journalist) to take photos of the "crash scene" in the Calverton, NY hangar. Even so, the FBI restricted the photos Sanders was able to take of the debris, and the Justice Department made it illegal for him to later publish the photos. Crucial parts of the aircraft were removed prior to Sander's arrival.
: 14) The Justice Department has given no reasonable explanation as to why it would prohibit publication of the photos.
: 15) The ultimate location of different pieces of an aircraft after exploding in midair provides a reliable indication of where the explosion or impact began - the closer the piece of the aircraft to the original explosion, the sooner it will fall away from the rest of the aircraft and the closer it will be to the beginning of the debris field.
: 16) The original LOCATION TAGS on the recovered debris -- as captured by Sanders through a telephoto lens -- revealed a debris field consistent with a missile shoot down and inconsistent with the government's center wing tank theory and the debris field as ultimately reported by the NTSB.
: 17) The original CONDITION OF SPECIFIC PIECES OF DEBRIS, as also captured on film was also consistent with a missile shoot down, inconsistent with the governments CWT theory and inconsistent with the condition of this debris provided by the NTSB.
: 18) Most witnesses reporting that they saw a flare or missile said that the trailing flame was reddish-orange in color. A path of reddish-orange residue was found on the backs of seats just in front of the 747's wings.
: 19) The original shape of the specific pieces of debris shows a narrow path of destruction, consistent with the punching through of a missile just in front of the wings. In addition, the seats in this area were the first to leave the aircraft though their location in the aircraft was 50 feet in front of the initiating event alleged by the government.
: 20) Despite government claims to the contrary, the chemistry of this residue - as analyzed by several independent sources -- was consistent with residue left by the burning of solid rocket fuel and inconsistent with the glue claimed by the government.
: 21) Under oath, the NASA chemist who allegedly identified the red residue as glue admitted that the government was lying about it. The senior government scientist attached to the Flight 800 investigation (not the chemist above) was caught on audio-tape admitting that the government had never tested the residue, as it was afraid of what such a test would reveal.
: 22) The NTSB was the primary investigator but was bullied out of that role by the FBI who started making up the rules and taking away evidence never to be seen again.
: 23) After years of denial, the Navy finally admitted holding a large scale, top secret exercise immediately south of the crash, beginning 30 minutes prior to the crash.
: 24) Two unidentified ships were picked up on radar less than 3 miles from Flight 800 at the time of its last transponder signal. One of these ships was traveling at 30 knots away from the scene and joined up with a whole flotilla of ships moving away from the scene into a restricted military area. None of these ships sped off in the pursuit of terrorists or offered to help at the crash scene.
: 25) Neither the FBI, NTSB or Navy ever identified any of these vessels.
: 26) The top secret exercise was the final test (before "combat certification") of a new military technology/tactic - Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC) -which uses new air born radar capacity AND SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILES to protect ships from Cruise missiles. The particular location was chosen due to the need to test CEC in a high traffic area.
: 27) At least one of the eyewitnesses took a picture of what appears to be a Cruise missile. (From the eyewitness accounts, there actually appears to be THREE different missiles seen that evening -- one of them, a Cruise.)
: 28) At the time of Flight 800's demise, these naval operations were being monitored by the most sophisticated observation equipment in the world. A top-secret U.S. aircraft was picked up on radar HOVERING over the area at 98,000 feet. The Navy has not released its data.
: 29) One day after the Sanders' story first broke in the press, President Clinton issued Executive Order 13039 which specifically provides for "Exclusion of the Naval Special Warfare Development Group From the Federal Labor-Management Relations Program". The FLMR program provides a mechanism for workers to report wrongdoing without fear of reprisal. Naval Special Warfare was part of the TWA 800 recovery team and its members were exempted from the program's protection by this Executive Order.
: 30) President Clinton would have been aware of this CEC testing and probably would have had to authorize it personally.
: 31) The 96 Presidential election was 4 months away. A decision to cover-up would need to be made immediately and then held to -- no matter what webs were woven -- once initiated.
: 32) Government, almost by definition tries to hide its mistakes. If you're looking for knee jerk reactions, this is one you can count on.
: 33) Clinton and his Administration seem to be especially prone to this tendency.
: 34) The owners of the establishment media have little interest in exposing government corruption (especially that of the Clinton Administration) and nothing is proclaimed from these highest podiums in the land without being authorized.
: 35) The government and establishment media has led us to believe that the NTSB Final Report was released on Aug 22, when in fact, only an abstract was released (just giving its conclusions) as the Final Report itself is not finished and will not be released until after the 2000 Presidential election.
: 36) Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Rick: You done good, as they say down south.

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: : : Elmer, : : I also hope that you don't go away. : : Though, be warned that I come with a substantial bias - I love a good conspiracy and I hate the Clinton Administration. I can't help it -- that's how I am. : : I'll try not to be belligerent, but it isn't easy. : : Your points that (1) eyewitnesses can make glaring errors, and that (2) the people most familiar with the setting might be most prone to pre-consciously add their own expectations, are well-taken. But obviously, that isn't to say that eyewitnesses should be discounted -- especially when there are hundreds of them, they provide a 360-degree perspective around the mishap, and many of them are highly credible. Mostly, your disclaimers seem to point out that ALL evidence should be taken with a substantial "grain of salt" - EVEN eyewitness accounts. : : Following are some of the claims I've encountered that support the missile hypothesis. Obviously, I'm hoping that you won't be able to dismantle them one-by-one, but I would also like to know the truth -- so give it your best shot while I hold my breath. : : One final complaint before getting started. I am well educated, a Psychometrician, helicopter pilot, combat veteran and 58 years old - and, as far as I can tell, I find the evidence for a missile shoot down quite credible. I know a lot of other well-educated, seemingly intelligent people who have come to similar conclusions. One trait that distinguishes us from most well educated NON-believers is that we are much better read on the subject… (I understand that pre-existing biases may have much to do with the extra reading, but that doesn't discount the extra information we've gained by the extra reading.) : : Also, the Internet and "alternative" media are positively abuzz with allegations supporting the missile thesis. : : But, I also perceive the government and establishment media as dismissing the missile thesis out of hand without carefully addressing the different allegations. Do you agree with that accounting? Does it sound familiar? If so, how can we take the establishment media seriously when it doesn't take us seriously? We might be wrong, but we're not stupid - and we're no more biased than the people on the other side. : : I'll do my best to keep an open mind. For now, please just tell me your opinion of the credibility of each of these 36 allegations - we can get to your explanations later. Probably the easiest way to do this is to use a five point scale: strongly agree; agree; no opinion; disagree; strongly disagree. Unfortunately, some of the "specific" allegations are actually multiple and you may need to distinguish between pieces. : : : : 1) On the evening of July 17, 1996, 30 minutes after the crash of TWA Flight 800 twelve miles south of Long Island, the FAA called the situation room at the White House to report that the 747 had apparently been shot down by a surface to air missile. : : 2) An object traveling in excess of 2000 mph (or an anomaly) had been picked up on 3 passes of the FAA Islip (NY) radar and overtaking Flight 800 just as the 747's transponder died. : : 3) When word got out that such an "object" had been tracked by radar, the FBI and NTSB spread their word that the radar tape was not authentic. Later, they were forced to retract their claim when Boston radar, Navy Riverhead radar and satellite data were found to contain similar "blips." : : 4) At the same time, 183 eyewitnesses claimed to have seen at least one flare or missile like object converge upon TWA800 right before the explosion. 96 of these claimed to have seen it rise from the surface. : : 5) The NTSB set up a Witness Group that was immediately disbanded when the FBI "illegally" took over. The NTSB never did interview any witnesses. : : 6) The CIA, out of its jurisdiction and expertise (but masters of disinformation), without interviewing any of the witnesses that claimed to see the object rise from the surface, claimed that what the witnesses had actually seen was smoldering debris falling from the aircraft AFTER the explosion. They produced a cartoon depicting such an event and released it to national TV. : : 7) Those who claimed to have seen the object rise from the surface claimed that the cartoon bore no resemblance to what they had observed. In reading their testimonies, I came to the same conclusion. : : 8) Two of these eyewitnesses were helicopter pilots of the NY Air National Guard who were so close to the explosion as to need to avoid debris and be able to see falling bodies. They saw TWO missiles coming - from opposite directions. : : 9) Another group of witnesses to an apparent missile was the crew of a NY Air National Guard C-130 also on the scene who were describing their experience to the press when a high ranking military officer pulled them away. When they returned, their story had changed. : : 10) One witness to what he believed to be a missile converging on FL800 was actually a missile expert on board another commercial aircraft less than 2 miles away at the time of the first explosion. : : 11) Several witnesses on the ground claimed to have heard a loud, "rolling" noise (entirely consistent with the launching of a missile) approximately 20 seconds before the first explosion of TWA 800. : : 12) The last noise on the cockpit voice recorder was a vibration traveling through the airframe at 2000 ft per second - consistent with a missile impact and inconsistent with a bomb or fuel tank explosion (the government's explanation) : : 13) Because of his indictment involving this case, the FBI was forced to allow James Sanders (an investigative journalist) to take photos of the "crash scene" in the Calverton, NY hangar. Even so, the FBI restricted the photos Sanders was able to take of the debris, and the Justice Department made it illegal for him to later publish the photos. Crucial parts of the aircraft were removed prior to Sander's arrival. : : 14) The Justice Department has given no reasonable explanation as to why it would prohibit publication of the photos. : : 15) The ultimate location of different pieces of an aircraft after exploding in midair provides a reliable indication of where the explosion or impact began - the closer the piece of the aircraft to the original explosion, the sooner it will fall away from the rest of the aircraft and the closer it will be to the beginning of the debris field. : : 16) The original LOCATION TAGS on the recovered debris -- as captured by Sanders through a telephoto lens -- revealed a debris field consistent with a missile shoot down and inconsistent with the government's center wing tank theory and the debris field as ultimately reported by the NTSB. : : 17) The original CONDITION OF SPECIFIC PIECES OF DEBRIS, as also captured on film was also consistent with a missile shoot down, inconsistent with the governments CWT theory and inconsistent with the condition of this debris provided by the NTSB. : : 18) Most witnesses reporting that they saw a flare or missile said that the trailing flame was reddish-orange in color. A path of reddish-orange residue was found on the backs of seats just in front of the 747's wings. : : 19) The original shape of the specific pieces of debris shows a narrow path of destruction, consistent with the punching through of a missile just in front of the wings. In addition, the seats in this area were the first to leave the aircraft though their location in the aircraft was 50 feet in front of the initiating event alleged by the government. : : 20) Despite government claims to the contrary, the chemistry of this residue - as analyzed by several independent sources -- was consistent with residue left by the burning of solid rocket fuel and inconsistent with the glue claimed by the government. : : 21) Under oath, the NASA chemist who allegedly identified the red residue as glue admitted that the government was lying about it. The senior government scientist attached to the Flight 800 investigation (not the chemist above) was caught on audio-tape admitting that the government had never tested the residue, as it was afraid of what such a test would reveal. : : 22) The NTSB was the primary investigator but was bullied out of that role by the FBI who started making up the rules and taking away evidence never to be seen again. : : 23) After years of denial, the Navy finally admitted holding a large scale, top secret exercise immediately south of the crash, beginning 30 minutes prior to the crash. : : 24) Two unidentified ships were picked up on radar less than 3 miles from Flight 800 at the time of its last transponder signal. One of these ships was traveling at 30 knots away from the scene and joined up with a whole flotilla of ships moving away from the scene into a restricted military area. None of these ships sped off in the pursuit of terrorists or offered to help at the crash scene. : : 25) Neither the FBI, NTSB or Navy ever identified any of these vessels. : : 26) The top secret exercise was the final test (before "combat certification") of a new military technology/tactic - Cooperative Engagement Capability (CEC) -which uses new air born radar capacity AND SURFACE-TO-AIR MISSILES to protect ships from Cruise missiles. The particular location was chosen due to the need to test CEC in a high traffic area. : : 27) At least one of the eyewitnesses took a picture of what appears to be a Cruise missile. (From the eyewitness accounts, there actually appears to be THREE different missiles seen that evening -- one of them, a Cruise.) : : 28) At the time of Flight 800's demise, these naval operations were being monitored by the most sophisticated observation equipment in the world. A top-secret U.S. aircraft was picked up on radar HOVERING over the area at 98,000 feet. The Navy has not released its data. : : 29) One day after the Sanders' story first broke in the press, President Clinton issued Executive Order 13039 which specifically provides for "Exclusion of the Naval Special Warfare Development Group From the Federal Labor-Management Relations Program". The FLMR program provides a mechanism for workers to report wrongdoing without fear of reprisal. Naval Special Warfare was part of the TWA 800 recovery team and its members were exempted from the program's protection by this Executive Order. : : 30) President Clinton would have been aware of this CEC testing and probably would have had to authorize it personally. : : 31) The 96 Presidential election was 4 months away. A decision to cover-up would need to be made immediately and then held to -- no matter what webs were woven -- once initiated. : : 32) Government, almost by definition tries to hide its mistakes. If you're looking for knee jerk reactions, this is one you can count on. : : 33) Clinton and his Administration seem to be especially prone to this tendency. : : 34) The owners of the establishment media have little interest in exposing government corruption (especially that of the Clinton Administration) and nothing is proclaimed from these highest podiums in the land without being authorized. : : 35) The government and establishment media has led us to believe that the NTSB Final Report was released on Aug 22, when in fact, only an abstract was released (just giving its conclusions) as the Final Report itself is not finished and will not be released until after the 2000 Presidential election. : : 36) Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. : : Rick: You done good, as they say down south.

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